Talk:Gender - Revision history

Admin: Blanked the page

2014-07-18T02:27:31Z

Blanked the page

Admin: Protected "Talk:Gender" ([Edit=Allow only autoconfirmed users] (indefinite) [Move=Allow only autoconfirmed users] (indefinite))

2014-03-13T06:30:01Z

Protected "Talk:Gender" ([Edit=Allow only autoconfirmed users] (indefinite) [Move=Allow only autoconfirmed users] (indefinite))

Admin: /* on "vandalism" */

2014-03-13T06:29:51Z

‎on "vandalism"

74.60.181.179: /* on "vandalism" */

2014-03-13T06:16:39Z

‎on "vandalism"

204.45.134.110 at 06:01, 13 March 2014

2014-03-13T06:01:03Z

204.45.134.110: /* on "vandalism" */ new section

2014-03-13T05:58:45Z

‎on "vandalism": new section

204.45.134.110: don't delete a talk page, dumbass

2014-03-13T05:50:21Z

don't delete a talk page, dumbass

Admin: Replaced content with "citations are not needed to add cis, trans and other terms that are not necessarily genders but are often confused"

2014-03-13T04:00:13Z

Replaced content with "citations are not needed to add cis, trans and other terms that are not necessarily genders but are often confused"

Admin at 11:39, 11 March 2014

2014-03-11T11:39:44Z

Admin at 11:39, 11 March 2014

2014-03-11T11:39:18Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 02:27, 18 July 2014
Line 1:		Line 1:
−	"Hermaphrodite" is not a medical term. It is also considered highly offensive. The correct term is "intersex." Intersex encompasses a variety of conditions. This page also seems to not understand the difference between sex, gender, and gender identity. These are really important distinctions.

−	~~Cis and trans are not orientations in and of themselves. They relate to how an individual relates to their assigned gender at birth.~~
−
−	Many younger trans people consider FTM or MTF to represent a narrative that does not necessarily relate to the reality of their lives. They were born what they are now. It's just that their birth assignment didn't match.
−
−	~~While that is true, there are still those who identify with the FTM or MTF narratives, so they are options. And you're talking with one now.~~
−
−	~~[[User:Tersia\|Tersia]] ([[User talk:Tersia\|talk]]) 04:41, 10 March 2014 (UTC)~~
−
−	~~== Definition of gender ==~~
−
−	The article had "Gender is the range of biological characteristics pertaining to, and differentiating between the spectrum of masculinity and femininity". While that is flat-out wrong, it was entered by Admin, so I'm not going to try to change it outright. I added a citation needed tag. This site shouldn't be defining gender for people. It should be linking them out to reliable sources. -- Wulfrath
−
−	If you see something like that, please do post a suggestion for the alteration that reflects a culturally inclusive view, linking to a notable source is also great. I am certainly not above the law, and a lot of what is entered is written at late hours with very little sleep to get the project rolling.
−	~~--[[User:Admin\|Admin]] ([[User talk:Admin\|talk]]) 13:23, 10 March 2014 (UTC)~~
−
−	~~== Alienation? ==~~
−
−	The page currently has a note on it that I, with my genderfucked lenses on, can not figure out. I personally cannot find how this is sounding like gender variant people are space aliens. To me, it's just neural and straight forward. Basically, I'm looking for a way to fix it, and can't find one.
−
−	Within the world of BDSM, gender rights and orientations are a large and often debated discussion. Best Practices are to indicate an inclusive view concerning gender orientation as a part of identity and recognize that many identify their gender in various fashions as is their right {{this makes it sound like gender variant people are space aliens. you are assuming cis readers}}
−
−	; I think I fixed it by minimizing the information and strictly limiting the data to what gender is. Further, for now adding "culturally exclusive gender as a page and listing some of them that may cover the genders there, and if/when we eventually have articles on each of them, the appropriate measure seems to be that each be listed as a gender no different from other genders but be tagged on the article as a culturally exclusive gender as well as a gender for categories. The reason I think they should be included in both is that we can show that generally speaking there is a stance that a particular orientation is considered culturally exclusive, but lets be real, this is the internet, people adopt culture however they are going to, and no one has the right to tell someone they cannot identify a certain way, they can only decide if they endorse that agenda for themselves. Is that potentially insensitive, it could be, but no one culture owns a trademark to a thought/idea.
−
−	~~:: Would you like me to go through and add Wikipedia links until we flesh those out on our own?~~
−	::There are reasons for those culturally exclusive ones to be culturally exclusive. For example, white people calling themselves a Two-Spirit without express link to the Native American tribes is culturally insensitive and erases the identities of actual Two-Spirit people, since being Two-Spirit is linked to the Native American belief and social systems as well. There are other, non-culturally exclusive terms for the third gender. Here's the Wiki link on all third genders, hopefully it's some insight: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_gender -- Sabryna
−
−	:: Admin, it's a part of the internet that YOU control. This whole, "Yeah, but whaddaya gonna do" apathetic shit is tiring. Just because some other people are jerks doesn't excuse you being a jerk too. Someone has told you there's a problem, so fix it. Also, this is the ''BDSM'' wiki. It's not the gender wiki. I see no reason you need to define gender here when there are perfectly good places on the internet to find that information. All you're accomplishing is adding MISinformation. [[Special:Contributions/76.73.41.174\|76.73.41.174]] 01:51, 11 March 2014 (UTC)
−
−	~~::: Can we just throw links to GOOD sources on gender in this page, then? I don't see why this has to be a dividing issue.~~
−
−	~~== "Cis" is not a gender ==~~
−
−	Neither is "trans". Both cis and trans refer to how gender corresponds to some other thing, such as assigned sex at birth. Someone could be masculine and be cis, or they could be feminine and be cis, or whatever.
−
−	Gender is going to be a divisive issue no matter what, and no one is going to agree on it fully, ever, wikipedia has the same problems of people disagreeing about controversial topics and that is never going to go away. For now however, it seems prudent that if someone wants to write articles they should write articles, especially if there is information that is contextual to BDSM, and if no one wants to deal with it, the last option should be to link offsite for an entire page and should not be the standard practice (though it might make sense to have a stub for now and then link for more data until we get enough data gathered). Further, discussion of gender has a lot to do with how many view their sexual rights and in many cases the two things are indeed historically linked (stonewall). If you consider yourself a gender expert, please feel free to red up those words and start filling them in. Arguing over something that isn't there is a waste of time. Put something down (not vandalism of course) and then we can start finagling the message until it's a good representation. This is a wiki, the first draft, is very rarely if ever the last draft. --[[User:Admin\|Admin]] ([[User talk:Admin\|talk]]) 11:39, 11 March 2014 (UTC)
−
−	~~== on "vandalism" ==~~
−
−	Vandalism means defacing something in such a way that it ''reduces'' its value. The only person doing that here is Admin. Deleting stuff that is wrong or misleading is ADDING value = not vandalism. Reverting changes to add back stuff that is wrong = vandalism. Deleting discussion topics = vandalism. That's all you, Admin. Own that. Anyone can look back through the history and see again and again people try to point out mistakes you made and you revert them and try to cover up the evidence that anyone ever disagreed. Should have picked a system that didn't track history, huh?
−
−	I can see you're new to wikis, so here's a tip: you don't delete discussion until the topics have been resolved. A topic isn't resolved simply by reverting everyone's questions. What kind of farce is this? You wanted a wiki; accept people's input. They are trying to help you.
−
−	~~The reason people keep changing the pages for Gender is that you are getting it wrong. It's better to have nothing than to have something wrong.~~
−
−	I get that there are some topics where there is information to add here that won't be on an external site. Gender is NOT one of those topics. There is nothing particular to BDSM about gender. You might think there is, but that's because you probably never encountered gender-variant people until you started interacting in BDSM circles. That's your problem; gender-variant people are not "exotic" or "kinky". Gender isn't a kink. I mean, you realize that, right? It's not a fetish.
−
−	Here's another tip: gender isn't a buffet. You don't give people a big list so that they can look through it and see what gender appeals to them. And also, gender isn't a zoo. You don't give people a big list so that they can marvel at all the different weird people and all their specialty genders. Oh, wow, an exotic ''Mexican'' gender! How culture-exclusive.
−
−	~~That stuff isn't for you. Keep your grubby hands off it.~~
−
−	~~It is clear that you don't know what basic words like "transgender" or "heteronormative" mean. Own that. [[Special:Contributions/204.45.134.110\|204.45.134.110]] 05:58, 13 March 2014 (UTC)~~
−
−	~~:: Debating deleting above comment because of passive aggressiveness and lack of helpfulness... don't know if want to feed the troll further, though.~~
−
−	:::'''I am using my mod voice''' This is the end of this argument anon, you either fix it and make it better, or you stop and go work on something else or I start taking measures, end of issue. If you have a potential solution feel free to draft it on the talk page here, otherwise this matter is closed. We do not bitch about things until they get better around here, we put the work in to make it better. That's how this works. The bitch, moan and hater crowd gets banned, the workers stay and work. You let me know which one you are. Put the article up here on the talk page the way you think it should go, show me why your way is better, but don't go trying to tear up this article again or my next step does not involve writing a response to you on the talk page. --[[User:Admin\|Admin]] ([[User talk:Admin\|talk]]) 06:29, 13 March 2014 (UTC)

← Older revision		Revision as of 06:29, 13 March 2014
Line 54:		Line 54:

	:: Debating deleting above comment because of passive aggressiveness and lack of helpfulness... don't know if want to feed the troll further, though.		:: Debating deleting above comment because of passive aggressiveness and lack of helpfulness... don't know if want to feed the troll further, though.
		+
		+	:::'''I am using my mod voice''' This is the end of this argument anon, you either fix it and make it better, or you stop and go work on something else or I start taking measures, end of issue. If you have a potential solution feel free to draft it on the talk page here, otherwise this matter is closed. We do not bitch about things until they get better around here, we put the work in to make it better. That's how this works. The bitch, moan and hater crowd gets banned, the workers stay and work. You let me know which one you are. Put the article up here on the talk page the way you think it should go, show me why your way is better, but don't go trying to tear up this article again or my next step does not involve writing a response to you on the talk page. --[[User:Admin\|Admin]] ([[User talk:Admin\|talk]]) 06:29, 13 March 2014 (UTC)

← Older revision		Revision as of 06:16, 13 March 2014
Line 52:		Line 52:

	It is clear that you don't know what basic words like "transgender" or "heteronormative" mean. Own that. [[Special:Contributions/204.45.134.110\|204.45.134.110]] 05:58, 13 March 2014 (UTC)		It is clear that you don't know what basic words like "transgender" or "heteronormative" mean. Own that. [[Special:Contributions/204.45.134.110\|204.45.134.110]] 05:58, 13 March 2014 (UTC)
		+
		+	:: Debating deleting above comment because of passive aggressiveness and lack of helpfulness... don't know if want to feed the troll further, though.

@@ Line 45: / Line 45: @@
 The reason people keep changing the pages for Gender is that you are getting it wrong. It's better to have nothing than to have something wrong.
-I get that there are some topics where there is information to add here that won't be on an external site. Gender is NOT one of those topics. There is nothing particular to BDSM about gender. You might think there is, but that's because you probably never encountered gender-variant people until you started interacting in BDSM circles. That's your problem; gender-variant people are "exotic" or "kinky". Gender isn't a kink.
+I get that there are some topics where there is information to add here that won't be on an external site. Gender is NOT one of those topics. There is nothing particular to BDSM about gender. You might think there is, but that's because you probably never encountered gender-variant people until you started interacting in BDSM circles. That's your problem; gender-variant people are not "exotic" or "kinky". Gender isn't a kink. I mean, you realize that, right? It's not a fetish.
 Here's another tip: gender isn't a buffet. You don't give people a big list so that they can look through it and see what gender appeals to them. And also, gender isn't a zoo. You don't give people a big list so that they can marvel at all the different weird people and all their specialty genders. Oh, wow, an exotic ''Mexican'' gender! How culture-exclusive.

← Older revision		Revision as of 05:58, 13 March 2014
Line 36:		Line 36:

	Gender is going to be a divisive issue no matter what, and no one is going to agree on it fully, ever, wikipedia has the same problems of people disagreeing about controversial topics and that is never going to go away. For now however, it seems prudent that if someone wants to write articles they should write articles, especially if there is information that is contextual to BDSM, and if no one wants to deal with it, the last option should be to link offsite for an entire page and should not be the standard practice (though it might make sense to have a stub for now and then link for more data until we get enough data gathered). Further, discussion of gender has a lot to do with how many view their sexual rights and in many cases the two things are indeed historically linked (stonewall). If you consider yourself a gender expert, please feel free to red up those words and start filling them in. Arguing over something that isn't there is a waste of time. Put something down (not vandalism of course) and then we can start finagling the message until it's a good representation. This is a wiki, the first draft, is very rarely if ever the last draft. --[[User:Admin\|Admin]] ([[User talk:Admin\|talk]]) 11:39, 11 March 2014 (UTC)		Gender is going to be a divisive issue no matter what, and no one is going to agree on it fully, ever, wikipedia has the same problems of people disagreeing about controversial topics and that is never going to go away. For now however, it seems prudent that if someone wants to write articles they should write articles, especially if there is information that is contextual to BDSM, and if no one wants to deal with it, the last option should be to link offsite for an entire page and should not be the standard practice (though it might make sense to have a stub for now and then link for more data until we get enough data gathered). Further, discussion of gender has a lot to do with how many view their sexual rights and in many cases the two things are indeed historically linked (stonewall). If you consider yourself a gender expert, please feel free to red up those words and start filling them in. Arguing over something that isn't there is a waste of time. Put something down (not vandalism of course) and then we can start finagling the message until it's a good representation. This is a wiki, the first draft, is very rarely if ever the last draft. --[[User:Admin\|Admin]] ([[User talk:Admin\|talk]]) 11:39, 11 March 2014 (UTC)
		+
		+	== on "vandalism" ==
		+
		+	Vandalism means defacing something in such a way that it ''reduces'' its value. The only person doing that here is Admin. Deleting stuff that is wrong or misleading is ADDING value = not vandalism. Reverting changes to add back stuff that is wrong = vandalism. Deleting discussion topics = vandalism. That's all you, Admin. Own that. Anyone can look back through the history and see again and again people try to point out mistakes you made and you revert them and try to cover up the evidence that anyone ever disagreed. Should have picked a system that didn't track history, huh?
		+
		+	I can see you're new to wikis, so here's a tip: you don't delete discussion until the topics have been resolved. A topic isn't resolved simply by reverting everyone's questions. What kind of farce is this? You wanted a wiki; accept people's input. They are trying to help you.
		+
		+	The reason people keep changing the pages for Gender is that you are getting it wrong. It's better to have nothing than to have something wrong.
		+
		+	I get that there are some topics where there is information to add here that won't be on an external site. Gender is NOT one of those topics. There is nothing particular to BDSM about gender. You might think there is, but that's because you probably never encountered gender-variant people until you started interacting in BDSM circles. That's your problem; gender-variant people are "exotic" or "kinky". Gender isn't a kink.
		+
		+	Here's another tip: gender isn't a buffet. You don't give people a big list so that they can look through it and see what gender appeals to them. And also, gender isn't a zoo. You don't give people a big list so that they can marvel at all the different weird people and all their specialty genders. Oh, wow, an exotic ''Mexican'' gender! How culture-exclusive.
		+
		+	That stuff isn't for you. Keep your grubby hands off it.
		+
		+	It is clear that you don't know what basic words like "transgender" or "heteronormative" mean. Own that. [[Special:Contributions/204.45.134.110\|204.45.134.110]] 05:58, 13 March 2014 (UTC)

← Older revision	Revision as of 06:30, 13 March 2014
(No difference)

← Older revision		Revision as of 05:50, 13 March 2014
Line 1:		Line 1:
−	~~citations~~ are not needed to ~~add~~ cis, ~~trans~~ and other ~~terms~~ that are ~~not necessarily~~ genders but are ~~often confused~~	+	"Hermaphrodite" is not a medical term. It is also considered highly offensive. The correct term is "intersex." Intersex encompasses a variety of conditions. This page also seems to not understand the difference between sex, gender, and gender identity. These are really important distinctions.
		+
		+	Cis and trans are not orientations in and of themselves. They relate to how an individual relates to their assigned gender at birth.
		+
		+	Many younger trans people consider FTM or MTF to represent a narrative that does not necessarily relate to the reality of their lives. They were born what they are now. It's just that their birth assignment didn't match.
		+
		+	While that is true, there are still those who identify with the FTM or MTF narratives, so they are options. And you're talking with one now.
		+
		+	[[User:Tersia\|Tersia]] ([[User talk:Tersia\|talk]]) 04:41, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
		+
		+	== Definition of gender ==
		+
		+	The article had "Gender is the range of biological characteristics pertaining to, and differentiating between the spectrum of masculinity and femininity". While that is flat-out wrong, it was entered by Admin, so I'm not going to try to change it outright. I added a citation needed tag. This site shouldn't be defining gender for people. It should be linking them out to reliable sources. -- Wulfrath
		+
		+	If you see something like that, please do post a suggestion for the alteration that reflects a culturally inclusive view, linking to a notable source is also great. I am certainly not above the law, and a lot of what is entered is written at late hours with very little sleep to get the project rolling.
		+	--[[User:Admin\|Admin]] ([[User talk:Admin\|talk]]) 13:23, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
		+
		+	== Alienation? ==
		+
		+	The page currently has a note on it that I, with my genderfucked lenses on, can not figure out. I personally cannot find how this is sounding like gender variant people are space aliens. To me, it's just neural and straight forward. Basically, I'm looking for a way to fix it, and can't find one.
		+
		+	Within the world of BDSM, gender rights and orientations are a large and often debated discussion. Best Practices are to indicate an inclusive view concerning gender orientation as a part of identity and recognize that many identify their gender in various fashions as is their right {{this makes it sound like gender variant people are space aliens. you are assuming cis readers}}
		+
		+	; I think I fixed it by minimizing the information and strictly limiting the data to what gender is. Further, for now adding "culturally exclusive gender as a page and listing some of them that may cover the genders there, and if/when we eventually have articles on each of them, the appropriate measure seems to be that each be listed as a gender no different from other genders but be tagged on the article as a culturally exclusive gender as well as a gender for categories. The reason I think they should be included in both is that we can show that generally speaking there is a stance that a particular orientation is considered culturally exclusive, but lets be real, this is the internet, people adopt culture however they are going to, and no one has the right to tell someone they cannot identify a certain way, they can only decide if they endorse that agenda for themselves. Is that potentially insensitive, it could be, but no one culture owns a trademark to a thought/idea.
		+
		+	:: Would you like me to go through and add Wikipedia links until we flesh those out on our own?
		+	::There are reasons for those culturally exclusive ones to be culturally exclusive. For example, white people calling themselves a Two-Spirit without express link to the Native American tribes is culturally insensitive and erases the identities of actual Two-Spirit people, since being Two-Spirit is linked to the Native American belief and social systems as well. There are other, non-culturally exclusive terms for the third gender. Here's the Wiki link on all third genders, hopefully it's some insight: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_gender -- Sabryna
		+
		+	:: Admin, it's a part of the internet that YOU control. This whole, "Yeah, but whaddaya gonna do" apathetic shit is tiring. Just because some other people are jerks doesn't excuse you being a jerk too. Someone has told you there's a problem, so fix it. Also, this is the ''BDSM'' wiki. It's not the gender wiki. I see no reason you need to define gender here when there are perfectly good places on the internet to find that information. All you're accomplishing is adding MISinformation. [[Special:Contributions/76.73.41.174\|76.73.41.174]] 01:51, 11 March 2014 (UTC)
		+
		+	::: Can we just throw links to GOOD sources on gender in this page, then? I don't see why this has to be a dividing issue.
		+
		+	== "Cis" is not a gender ==
		+
		+	Neither is "trans". Both cis and trans refer to how gender corresponds to some other thing, such as assigned sex at birth. Someone could be masculine and be cis, or they could be feminine and be cis, or whatever.
		+
		+	Gender is going to be a divisive issue no matter what, and no one is going to agree on it fully, ever, wikipedia has the same problems of people disagreeing about controversial topics and that is never going to go away. For now however, it seems prudent that if someone wants to write articles they should write articles, especially if there is information that is contextual to BDSM, and if no one wants to deal with it, the last option should be to link offsite for an entire page and should not be the standard practice (though it might make sense to have a stub for now and then link for more data until we get enough data gathered). Further, discussion of gender has a lot to do with how many view their sexual rights and in many cases the two things are indeed historically linked (stonewall). If you consider yourself a gender expert, please feel free to red up those words and start filling them in. Arguing over something that isn't there is a waste of time. Put something down (not vandalism of course) and then we can start finagling the message until it's a good representation. This is a wiki, the first draft, is very rarely if ever the last draft. --[[User:Admin\|Admin]] ([[User talk:Admin\|talk]]) 11:39, 11 March 2014 (UTC)

@@ Line 1: / Line 1: @@
-"Hermaphrodite" is not a medical term. It is also considered highly offensive. The correct term is "intersex." Intersex encompasses a variety of conditions. This page also seems to not understand the difference between sex, gender, and gender identity. These are really important distinctions.
+citations are not needed to add cis, trans and other terms that are not necessarily genders but are often confused
-−
-Cis and trans are not orientations in and of themselves. They relate to how an individual relates to their assigned gender at birth.
-−
-Many younger trans people consider FTM or MTF to represent a narrative that does not necessarily relate to the reality of their lives. They were born what they are now. It's just that their birth assignment didn't match.
-−
-While that is true, there are still those who identify with the FTM or MTF narratives, so they are options. And you're talking with one now.
-−
-[[User:Tersia|Tersia]] ([[User talk:Tersia|talk]]) 04:41, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
-−
-== Definition of gender ==
-−
-The article had "Gender is the range of biological characteristics pertaining to, and differentiating between the spectrum of masculinity and femininity". While that is flat-out wrong, it was entered by Admin, so I'm not going to try to change it outright. I added a citation needed tag. This site shouldn't be defining gender for people. It should be linking them out to reliable sources. -- Wulfrath
-−
-If you see something like that, please do post a suggestion for the alteration that reflects a culturally inclusive view, linking to a notable source is also great.  I am certainly not above the law, and a lot of what is entered is written at late hours with very little sleep to get the project rolling.
---[[User:Admin|Admin]] ([[User talk:Admin|talk]]) 13:23, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
-−
-== Alienation? ==
-−
-The page currently has a note on it that I, with my genderfucked lenses on, can not figure out. I personally cannot find how this is sounding like gender variant people are space aliens. To me, it's just neural and straight forward. Basically, I'm looking for a way to fix it, and can't find one.
-−
-Within the world of BDSM, gender rights and orientations are a large and often debated discussion. Best Practices are to indicate an inclusive view concerning gender orientation as a part of identity and recognize that many identify their gender in various fashions as is their right {{this makes it sound like gender variant people are space aliens. you are assuming cis readers}}
-−
-; I think I fixed it by minimizing the information and strictly limiting the data to what gender is.  Further, for now adding "culturally exclusive gender as a page and listing some of them that may cover the genders there, and if/when we eventually have articles on each of them, the appropriate measure seems to be that each be listed as a gender no different from other genders but be tagged on the article as a culturally exclusive gender as well as a gender for categories.  The reason I think they should be included in both is that we can show that generally speaking there is a stance that a particular orientation is considered culturally exclusive, but lets be real, this is the internet, people adopt culture however they are going to, and no one has the right to tell someone they cannot identify a certain way, they can only decide if they endorse that agenda for themselves.  Is that potentially insensitive, it could be, but no one culture owns a trademark to a thought/idea.
-−
-:: Would you like me to go through and add Wikipedia links until we flesh those out on our own?
-::There are reasons for those culturally exclusive ones to be culturally exclusive. For example, white people calling themselves a Two-Spirit without express link to the Native American tribes is culturally insensitive and erases the identities of actual Two-Spirit people, since being Two-Spirit is linked to the Native American belief and social systems as well. There are other, non-culturally exclusive terms for the third gender. Here's the Wiki link on all third genders, hopefully it's some insight: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_gender -- Sabryna
-−
-:: Admin, it's a part of the internet that YOU control. This whole, "Yeah, but whaddaya gonna do" apathetic shit is tiring. Just because some other people are jerks doesn't excuse you being a jerk too. Someone has told you there's a problem, so fix it. Also, this is the ''BDSM'' wiki. It's not the gender wiki. I see no reason you need to define gender here when there are perfectly good places on the internet to find that information. All you're accomplishing is adding MISinformation. [[Special:Contributions/76.73.41.174|76.73.41.174]] 01:51, 11 March 2014 (UTC)
-−
-::: Can we just throw links to GOOD sources on gender in this page, then? I don't see why this has to be a dividing issue.
-−
-== "Cis" is not a gender ==
-−
-Neither is "trans". Both cis and trans refer to how gender corresponds to some other thing, such as assigned sex at birth. Someone could be masculine and be cis, or they could be feminine and be cis, or whatever.
-−
-Gender is going to be a divisive issue no matter what, and no one is going to agree on it fully, ever, wikipedia has the same problems of people disagreeing about controversial topics and that is never going to go away.  For now however, it seems prudent that if someone wants to write articles they should write articles, especially if there is information that is contextual to BDSM, and if no one wants to deal with it, the last option should be to link offsite for an entire page and should not be the standard practice (though it might make sense to have a stub for now and then link for more data until we get enough data gathered).  Further, discussion of gender has a lot to do with how many view their sexual rights and in many cases the two things are indeed historically linked (stonewall).  If you consider yourself a gender expert, please feel free to red up those words and start filling them in.  Arguing over something that isn't there is a waste of time.  Put something down (not vandalism of course) and then we can start finagling the message until it's a good representation.  This is a wiki, the first draft, is very rarely if ever the last draft. --[[User:Admin|Admin]] ([[User talk:Admin|talk]]) 11:39, 11 March 2014 (UTC)

← Older revision		Revision as of 11:39, 11 March 2014
Line 35:		Line 35:
	Neither is "trans". Both cis and trans refer to how gender corresponds to some other thing, such as assigned sex at birth. Someone could be masculine and be cis, or they could be feminine and be cis, or whatever.		Neither is "trans". Both cis and trans refer to how gender corresponds to some other thing, such as assigned sex at birth. Someone could be masculine and be cis, or they could be feminine and be cis, or whatever.

−	Gender is going to be a divisive issue no matter what, and no one is going to agree on it fully, ever, wikipedia has the same problems of people disagreeing about controversial topics and that is never going to go away. For now however, it seems prudent that if someone wants to write articles they should write articles, especially if there is information that is contextual to BDSM, and if no one wants to deal with it, the last option should be to link offsite for an entire page and should not be the standard practice (though it might make sense to have a stub for now and then link for more data until we get enough data gathered). Further, discussion of gender has a lot to do with how many view their sexual rights and in many cases the two things are indeed historically linked (stonewall). If you consider yourself a gender expert, please feel free to red up those words and start filling them in. Arguing over something that isn't there is a waste of time. Put something down (not vandalism of course) and then we can start finagling the message until it's a good representation. This is a wiki, the first draft, is very rarely if ever the last draft. ~~That said~~,	+	Gender is going to be a divisive issue no matter what, and no one is going to agree on it fully, ever, wikipedia has the same problems of people disagreeing about controversial topics and that is never going to go away. For now however, it seems prudent that if someone wants to write articles they should write articles, especially if there is information that is contextual to BDSM, and if no one wants to deal with it, the last option should be to link offsite for an entire page and should not be the standard practice (though it might make sense to have a stub for now and then link for more data until we get enough data gathered). Further, discussion of gender has a lot to do with how many view their sexual rights and in many cases the two things are indeed historically linked (stonewall). If you consider yourself a gender expert, please feel free to red up those words and start filling them in. Arguing over something that isn't there is a waste of time. Put something down (not vandalism of course) and then we can start finagling the message until it's a good representation. This is a wiki, the first draft, is very rarely if ever the last draft. --[[User:Admin\|Admin]] ([[User talk:Admin\|talk]]) 11:39, 11 March 2014 (UTC)

← Older revision		Revision as of 11:39, 11 March 2014
Line 34:		Line 34:

	Neither is "trans". Both cis and trans refer to how gender corresponds to some other thing, such as assigned sex at birth. Someone could be masculine and be cis, or they could be feminine and be cis, or whatever.		Neither is "trans". Both cis and trans refer to how gender corresponds to some other thing, such as assigned sex at birth. Someone could be masculine and be cis, or they could be feminine and be cis, or whatever.
		+
		+	Gender is going to be a divisive issue no matter what, and no one is going to agree on it fully, ever, wikipedia has the same problems of people disagreeing about controversial topics and that is never going to go away. For now however, it seems prudent that if someone wants to write articles they should write articles, especially if there is information that is contextual to BDSM, and if no one wants to deal with it, the last option should be to link offsite for an entire page and should not be the standard practice (though it might make sense to have a stub for now and then link for more data until we get enough data gathered). Further, discussion of gender has a lot to do with how many view their sexual rights and in many cases the two things are indeed historically linked (stonewall). If you consider yourself a gender expert, please feel free to red up those words and start filling them in. Arguing over something that isn't there is a waste of time. Put something down (not vandalism of course) and then we can start finagling the message until it's a good representation. This is a wiki, the first draft, is very rarely if ever the last draft. That said,